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alain
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PostSubject: Re: Seamless   Mon 31 Jul - 22:34

nice to anim a part then to join to another one

http://dumenieu.free.fr/louiseforum/animjoin.wrl

http://dumenieu.free.fr/louiseforum/animjoin.smls



</embed]

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PostSubject: Re: Seamless   Tue 1 Aug - 0:50

I just had a look at your hand Alain and can see you really are quite advanced in your abilities using seamless. Hands are tricky things to make. It is not done using build nodes but few have ever tried to join a single vertex using seamless, using any of it's methods that I am aware of. Lol how could I forget about my breaking and joining vertices tutorial (its a few years old now). Its very pleasing to get some feedback from it finally Smile. It was written before the tool bar existed and I remember trying to demonstrate the logic of how the menu was arranged (copy and paste for color, coord or ownership). I have updated it since but it is still influenced by the logic of the menu which I was very proud of at the time and still feel it has something of value. I love toolbars and icons but menus too can help make concepts self explanatory by how the sub menus are arranged. The menu has some ugly bits to it. I spent ages designing it and can not yet think of a better way to arrange it so have not attempted to redesign it since Smile

Sleeping on something Jacinto said about an individual not being able to compete with a team, I think there is some truth to this but it is also true that a team can not compete with the creativity of an individual. When I made techuelife island I did not make it the way the professionals designed VRML to be used.
I had advice to use standard VRML Interpolators while I was making it and was told what I was trying to do was not worth doing but few who have seen techuelife island today, try to convince me I did it all wrong Smile
This gave me a lot of confidence to not assume teams of professionals necessarily know better than the passionate individual.
Most good languages, like art, are not designed by a committee. Committees and teams often compromise good design and hold back creativity. I learnt this first hand from the web3d consortium where reinventing the wheel is much frowned apon and I was even told I could face a lawsuit if I use the name X3D and not conform. This is why I feel its very sad when people put all their confidence in teams of professions. Typically the team does not even use what they are designing they just expect others to use it.
Think of the successful languages like C++, Pascal and Java. they utilise other people's previous ideas but they are designed by passionate creative individuals. Languages created by committees like VRML, X3D and HTML suffer from being known as "design by committee" languages and they show it.

If I had a team of programmers working for me as slaves lol seamless might develop a lot faster but I would not see it's design being compromised by a vote as a positive way to go.
Alternatively, people can be paid to not be creative and do as they are told but most commercial oriented ventures tend to be compromised by money lol

One can only theorise so much to make an argument, in the end the proof of the pudding is in the eating, not how much money or time or how many professionals with prestigious degrees were consulted.

The facts are simply this. The most sophisticated avatars made for VRML and X3D so far have been made by Seamless3d (and I do not feel the slightest bit arrogant saying this) so it is the program in the lead and it is the others that have yet to catch up or prove them selves.
Theory and promise of being good is only that until it has proven it self.
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alain
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PostSubject: Re: Seamless   Tue 1 Aug - 12:55

Some seamless' ???

no : David Smithh Smile






Smith, David—Notebook page, Studies for personages and totems—c. 1952




an my poor coincoin "Vamos a la playa !" Smile

http://dumenieu.free.fr/louiseforum/coincoin.wrl

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jacinto
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PostSubject: Re: Seamless   Tue 1 Aug - 13:56

hello

"Jacinto
dit au sujet d'un individu ne pouvant pas concurrencer une équipe, je pense qu'il y a
une certaine vérité à ceci
mais il est également vrai qu'une équipe ne peut pas concurrencer
la créativité d'un individu."

Oui c'est tout a fait exact. Pour ma part cela fait depuis 1982,
que je me pose cette question tous les jours, dans le monde de la peinture et
des nouvelle technologies qui est ma vie.
Je pense qu'un modeleur de 3d, n'importe lequel, possede des caracteristiques de base,
plus ou moins identiques pour tous, et qu'il s'agit d'un outil,( comme par exemple
un crayon, tous les crayons ont une forme de tube et déverse de l'encre le long d'une surface.)
et parce que depuis 10 ans des equipes ont analysé le systeme pour cela.
l'equipe est bonne pour cela et cela existe pour quelque temps encore jusqu'a une nouvelle revolution
technologique.

je pense aussi pour resumer une reponse que tu es dans une problematique
comme:
l'informatique est un art ou pas?
ou un language informatique est de l'art ou pas?
les grande puissance de ce monde ont tranché pour dire que le code informatique est un art,
la preuve est que les licenses de programation sont des droits d'auteurs comme pour les
artistes traditionnels ( pauvres comme moi lol).
et tout le probleme dans le fond est là.
personnellement je pense que tu devrais faire d'autres îles, et d'autres choses visuellement,
car cela est mon domaine, mais ... tu es tellement engagé dans le monde du code que ce serait
pour toi comme refaire ta vie. Tu n'es pas obligé d'être aussi extreme, je suis sûr... lol.

J'use l'informatique pour concevoir mes tableaux et la 3d en réseau avec avatars est particulièrement agreable et me sort de la solitude de mon atelier.


http://eol.free.fr/monde3da
http://jacinto.costoso.free.fr/2005/pages/parkingA.htm
http://jacinto.costoso.free.fr/2005/pages/parkingB.htm
http://jacinto.costoso.free.fr/2005/pages/parkingC.htm
http://jacinto.costoso.free.fr/2005/pages/parkingD.htm
http://jacinto.costoso.free.fr/2005/pages/parkingE.htm

ca c'est peu etre hors sujet, traduction autoportrait ? Very Happy
http://spain.free.fr/cinema/media/portrait.mpg


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alain
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PostSubject: Re: Seamless   Tue 1 Aug - 14:29

ah !!!!!!!!

I wanted to ask you since ages to show your paintings on your thread , jacinto !

Thanx !!

tu devrais les copier là bas , enfin comme tu veux , je suis content de les voir , même si c'est pas en vrai ( next trip to Paris ? Smile

c'est une voie très interessante , ça a été ma première impression ..
Confirmée ....

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jacinto
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PostSubject: Re: Seamless   Tue 1 Aug - 14:34

alain wrote:

ah !!!!!!!!
I wanted to ask you since ages to show your paintings on your thread , jacinto !

Thanx !!


c'est pour alimenter ce fil , les copiers dans un fil vide n'est pas interessant.

Mais venez donc les voir chez moi Smile


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PostSubject: Re: Seamless   Tue 1 Aug - 14:38

no prob , je suis content que Thyme les vois , aussi

bonnes vacnces jacinto , je pars à 17h , bonjour à Anne et bambins Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Seamless   Tue 1 Aug - 14:42

bonne vacances alain
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PostSubject: Re: Seamless   Wed 2 Aug - 0:47

Hi Jacinto Smile and Alain if you are here Smile

I have translated Alain's first French tutorial showing how to make an av using seamless and added pictures Smile

http://www.seamless3d.com/tut/alain_av/index_en.html

Robot translators only gives hints really for a translation so I had to rewrite most of it but kept Alain's sequence of events and avoided adding to much waffle Smile
I am really pleased and much appreciate Alain's efforts for writing this tutorial Smile
Next I want to add the same pics to Alain's French version but I think some of the French will need to be rewritten to accommodate the image oriented way of getting the information across.

Just adding the pics to the html took me over 3 hours!, Perhaps my computer would benefit by some more memory lol. but It reminds me of what the comedian/writer Ben Elton recently said about the internet bringing us information at super high speeds, He expressed that he did not believe anything of value on the net (talking about creativity) can be created at the same lightening speeds it takes to find information.
I often feel people expect way to much from computers and get fooled into thinking things can be done faster than they can. People expect to take time to paint or draw but when using a computer most stuff has to be mix and match to get it done fast.
Same with synthesizers, There is nothing stopping a synthesizer from being able to do all the expressive sorts of things a guitar can do but most of the time synthesizers are used in a very "fast" economic way compared to how guitars are typically used.
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PostSubject: Re: Seamless   Wed 2 Aug - 15:32

Hi Jacinto Smile

thanks for your reply

I like your painting:

http://jacinto.costoso.free.fr/2005/pages/parkingA.htm

Quote :

I think that a modeller of 3D, any, have basic characteristics,
more or less identical for all, and that it is about a tool,(such as for example
a pencil, all the pencils have the shape of tube and pours ink along a surface.)
and because for 10 years of the teams have analyzed the system for that.
the team is good for that and that still exists for some time until a new technological revolution.

I don't think it is this simple. Most 3d modellers are general purpose types and so may not support skin mesh animation so well. VRML and X3D are not at all popular, only a hand full of people still play with these standards. However 3d Games are big business, I would be interested to know just what is the standard way single skin mesh avatars are developed for them.
Yes there are common high level techniques for creating models such as NURBS and Splines and Subdivision but even these techniques vary greatly to how they can be approached and are not the only ways used.
I doubt metaballs is one of the commonly used techniques for creating organic type models for games but I don't know how far one can take metaballs. To my understanding metaballs is an interesting technique but is somewhat limited after a certain point. If it can be taken further to make more complex organic looking shapes, I would guess it would loose much of it's initial simplicity.
Once I thought NURBS perhaps was the way to go but I remember reading up on things and read realistic human faces are rarely made with NURBS today, that it is more common to begin with a pre-made mesh of a realistic face and use scaling techniques to modify it. I am curious to know what that means. Is this the technique blaxxun avatar studio uses? Seamless has a number of scaling nodes and SineTugs too can be thought of as a kind of variable scaling technique so I wonder if I have reinvented the wheel here.
NURBS are great for making organic type bodies but if you wanted to make something like a twirling pumpkin bind I can think of other technique that would probably be easier to use than using NURBS.

Most expensive modelling packages (if not all) allow creators to create specialised modules so perhaps the only real standard tool for 3d modelling is a C++ compiler.

You would have thought the world by now could have agreed on a standard image format like a jpeg or gif but one that uses polygons instead of compressed bitmaps. This of course was what VRML was meant to be but more than 10 years later there is no such popular standard. It would have been hard to have predicted 10 years ago a 2d standard like Flash would be much more popular. Why is this the case? Perhaps it has nothing to do with the design but I would have designed a 3d viewer format to have utilised C++ for the online format. Today 3d games are still written in C++ so here I am the one who is actually on the non radical side of the debate and yet I get a lot of opposition to wanting to do this Smile

For 3d modelling, I think you can end up achieving the same results using different techniques but often the technique influences the result. I know that using elliptical curves to guide the creation of a shape, influences a lot of my work I make with seamless which I am excited by.

Quote :

personally I think that you should make other islands, and other things visually,
because that is my field, but… you are engaged so much in the world of the code that it would be
for you like remaking your life.

I have many times asked my self If I should have used standard modelling tools (what ever they are) however I created most of Techuelife Island using a C++ compiler. This includes the shapes and the animation scripts. I did not use any 3d modellers other than what I wrote. I wrote a few GUIs to assist modelling but most shapes and scripts were directly created in C++ code. It is fair to say that Seamless3d is a continuation of the code that created techuelife island.
I could of course have used some spline based program like leveller to have created the hills (but I did not know of such programs then) and I would have been able to have made simular looking hills but it is unlikely I would have made the same distinctive sine wave shaped hills which most seem to find appealing.

Of course not everyone has to be a C++ programmer or write their own 3d modeller to be original but seamless3d at the very least adds a greater number of options for making 3d content, adding it's own influence and therefore adding a greater range of styles.

Quote :

is data processing an art or not?
or a data-processing language is art or not?

I think the meaning of the word art is open to interpretation. Nature can be referred to as a work of art when using art to have quite a general meaning. Art can also be restricted to mean something more specific such as the feelings and thoughts an animal has (typically a human) being expressed through some kind of medium.
If computers generated art by themselves that humans found delightful (and perhaps they already do for things like fractal patterns) why is this not art in a strict use of the word? If It can be exhibited in an art gallery and amuse, why is it not art?

Also when people create art typically it revolves around design. Computer programming for me is all about design. The way one designs a script to animate a model is directly related to the art that is being created. So for me programming can be treated much the same as painting. Of course for many programmers, creativity is seen as a bad thing that leads to undesirable bugs.
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jacinto
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PostSubject: Re: Seamless   Wed 2 Aug - 21:10

je ne tiens pas être trop technique, car dans ce domaine tu es vraiment bien meilleur, et vous trouverez mes idées bien naïves.
je pense au programme commercial maya qui je vous assure est une réussite pour le traitement des nurbs et sûrement vous devriez vous y intéresser. notamment une fonction extraordinaire !!
qui s'appelle "project curve on the surface". à ce jour, seulement deux programmes ont cela:
Maya et Rhino.
il existe une version d'étude de maya:
http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/index?siteID=123112&id=7639525
bon pour te dire cette fonction est un miracle !!
Smile
enfin, je dois dire que l'agence de l'emploi a demandé ce que nous pouvions faire ( moi et ma compagne ) avec nos connaissances, et que nous réalisons une série de tutoriaux avec blender à l'intention des institutions , pour des personnes ne connaissant pas ce domaine.
nous avons choisi Blender car il est gratuit et ainsi nous pouvons plus facilement traiter avec les institutions et juste avancer nos compétences dans le projet.
projet qui vise a faire faire du modelage, des animations...etc, mais nous de sommes qu'au début de ce projet, et il faut un aspect simple et un résultat visuel qui satisfasse les grand débutants en informatique.
http://schizzo.free.fr
Il se trouve que les metaballs, sont aujourd'hui abordables pour tous, et gratuits, car les ordinateurs ont considérablement augmenté leur vitesse de calcul.
L'industrie du jeu ne le sait pas encore, voilà un exemple de l'inertie des équipes Smile ....
Cette méthode m'intéresse car elle répond parfaitement au besoin de compréhension de l'espace tridimensionnel 3D, en outre il semble que le code "metaball" soit particulièrement stable.
Je trouve que les metaballs répondent bien aux écoles de beaux arts pour l'apprentissage de la sculpture.
aussi:
Le vrml trouve aujourd'hui un nouvel essor car on peut maintenant faire des choses plus complexes et intéressantes grâce à la puissance des ordinateur et des réseaux d'aujourd'hui.
Pour seamless au premier abord je dirais qu'il s'adresse a des personnes connaissant déjà le domaine mais aussi pour moi , qu'il n'est pas assez visuel, par exemple pour moi tout doit être visuel la hiérarchie le outliner de seamless me bloque complètement, les os sont invisible ?
Enfin je ne sais pas bien car je ne veux pas te faire de tort, je ne sais pas si tu veux développer un logiciel a usage commun ou si tu veux juste faire de la "peinture codifiée". c'est deux choses très différentes.
Quote :
Est-ce que ce la technique est des utilisations de studio d'avatar de blaxxun ? Sans couture a un certain nombre de noeuds de graduation et SineTugs aussi peut être considéré comme genre de technique variable
de graduation ainsi je me demande si j'ai réinventé la roue ici.
pardon j'ai pas compris la.
mais tu devrais savoir si tu as réinventé la roue non ? Smile
Quote :
ainsi peut-être le seul vrai outil standard pour modeler 3d sont un compilateur de C++
non le c++ est un langage évolue ( fait par une équipe ), et pourquoi du dirai pas :
"ainsi peut-être le seul vrai outil standard pour modeler 3d sont un interpréteur lisp ou un assembleur !!!"
Quote :
Il aurait été difficile d'avoir prévu il y a 10 ans une 2d norme
comme le flash serait beaucoup plus populaire
le flash résulte d'un besoin de transmission dans le réseau petit débit, et sa popularité était prévisible...
remarque la popularité des programmes ne m'intéresse pas trop,
sauf si je gagne de l'argent avec la vente de celui ci.
donc je ne vois pas de comparaisons instructive avec vrml.
Surtout n'y vois pas matière a te rendre triste. Au contraire
la seule chose qui motive ma discutions n'est que l'échange de connaissances et la progression dans nos développements respectifs , et jamais mon but n'est de te décourager de ce que tu fais.
Quote :
Il est juste pour indiquer que Seamless3d est une suite du code qui a créé l'île de techuelife.
il y là beaucoup, beaucoup a reflechir.
Quote :
Ainsi pour moi la programmation peut être traitée
le plus ou moins même que la peinture. Naturellement pour beaucoup de programmeurs, la créativité est vue comme mauvaise chose que cela mène aux bogues indésirables.
les techniques restent des techniques..programmer est une technique et la peinture a sa technique, d'ailleurs je suis particulièrement désintéressé de la technique pure , je l'utilise pour mes besoins de création rien d'autre.
Tu as raison de te battre pour la créativité et puis pour la création, et être contre le conditionnement des cerveaux.
Les autres programmeurs n'ont pas la fibre artistique.
je te laisse moi aussi car finalement le temps est meilleurs et je vais aller dans la montagne des Pyrenees ou j'aurai pas de moyen pour communiquer. j'espère que nous serons encore a nous parler en septembre.
a bientôt
jacinto
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PostSubject: Re: Seamless   Thu 3 Aug - 7:19

Hi Jacinto
I must first reply to this:

Quote :

I think of the Maya commercial program which I ensure you is a success for the treatment of the nurbs and surely you should be interested in it. in particular an extraordinary function!!
who is called “project curve one the surface”. to date, only two programs have that:
Maya and Rhino.
there is a version of Maya study:

http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/index?siteID=123112&id=7639525

to tell you this function good is a miracle!!
Smile

Thanks for the URL for a free version of meya but are you aware that seamless3d, though it does not support NURBS, it does support polygon independent surfaces and the ability to project a mesh onto a surface in such a way that the joins are tangently matched?
http://www.seamless3d.com/tut/node/branch_join.html
http://www.seamless3d.com/tut/build_av/index.html
also watch the seamless robot demonstrate this by going to help/BranchJoin av demo

I used this technique to make the horse

Quote :

For seamless with the first access I would say that it addresses myself has people already knowing the field but also for me, that it is not visual enough, for example for me all must be visual the hierarchy the outliner of seamless blocks me completely, are the bones invisible?

I am confused by what you say here. It sounds like you cant see the nodes in the scene tree!
Do you ever see anything like this:



this is how a hierarchy of Part nodes (bones) should look in the scene tree.

There were versions of seamless3d late last year and for a while into this year that prevented any nodes being seen for windows 98 which I was unaware of until quite recently but has been fixed now, Is this I wonder what is the problem?

I was not trying to knock metaballs. I would like to see if they can be taken further and how they would compare to other techniques if further developed. It is an unknown for me. I pointed out that to my understanding they are not a common technique for making models for real time 3d animation in regard to a comment you made, that after 10 years of development there are standard ways of doing things in 3d modelling and that this was your main basis for why seamless's techniques did not interest you to use.
I played with the idea of using metaballs as a base for seamless before I tried projectecting onto a surface but I assumed it would have it's limitations but I would not be that surprised if they can be more versatile than how I assume them to be.

Quote :

not the c++ is a language evolves/moves (made by a team), and why will not say: "only the true standard tool to thus perhaps model 3d are an interpreter lisp or an assembler!!!"

A language in it self is a tool whether it is C++, English or French plus one needs a compiler which is a tool to compile the C++ language.

You are correct that C++ has evolved as opposed to being an unproven language that has come into existence straight from the drawing board. This is probably what makes it a practical language rather than like so many that rely more on promise and marketing hype.

A committee decides the fate of C++ but because it already has been designed by the individual Bajarne Stroustrup:

http://www.research.att.com/~bs/

and because it is a low level language that can be programmed to get it's high level functionality through libraries, it should not suffer the fate of getting bogged down with a never ending lot of high level bloat tacked on to it.

Stroustrup's opinions naturally will hold most of the weight in what decisions are made for C++ I would assume, however stroustrup does point out problems that have occurred from not having complete control over the committee and he freely mentions issues that stem from design by committee languages and libraries.
Many of my views are in sympathy to his. I agree with him that a programming library should be designed by those who use it. This is a sharp contrast to VRML/X3D

Few 3d games or applications are written in Lisp to my understanding.
C++ unlike other languages revolves around core concepts of what a computer is and the reality today is C++ code generally compiles as fast as assembler unless the assembler programmer takes great care to manually optimize.

C++ is quite different to assembler in that it is not CPU dependent.

I think 3d viewer formats should be lower level than VRML because it makes little sense to me why you would want to limit the capabilities of the viewer format. High level formats can easily be converted to low level ones and most who see the content are not interested in reading the code they are only interested in the results.

Its fine to use specialised languages for specialised tasks that can be easily compiled into C++ code but what is gained using it for the final viewing content?

regards
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PostSubject: Re: Seamless   Thu 3 Aug - 12:56

1- Je comprends les préoccupations de l'animation en temps réel qui vous occupent, et je suis désolé de vous avoir déçu en pensant que vous en aviez l'idée contre des metaballs.

- Les metaballs me paraissent être une bonne solution de "modelage" pour appréhender la 3D, comme je l'ai déjà dit, pour comprendre l'espace de construction de volumes et convertir en polygones, retravailler puis cela permet du vrml.
- Votre programme est sans aucun doute plus abouti pour l'animation en temps réel.

2- je disais a propos des os dans la partie modelage de seamless,
qu'il me semblerait normal qu'on les voit , puisqu'ils
sont présents depuis le début du modelage dans votre programme.
Mais cela n'est peut-être pas important.

3- A propos du C++ :
cela fait des années que je n'emploie plus de langages de programmation à part un peu de vrml... et je me souviens avec joie des heureux moments que j'ai passé a programmer avec C++ en 1995 sur mon macintosh a l'époque .
http://jacinto.costoso.free.fr/1995bb.html
Je devrais essayer a nouveau je crois bien Smile

Quote :
Je pense que des formats de la visionneuse 3d devrait être plus bas que le VRML parce qu'il semble à peu raisonnable me pourquoi vous voudriez limiter les possibilités du format de visionneuse

Ne trouvez vous pas que vrml a l'avantage d'être d'un accès facile pour un débutant en informatique. Plus facile a approcher que c++

Quote :
Des formats de niveau élevé peuvent facilement être convertis
en niveau bas ceux et plus qui voient que le contenu n'est pas intéressé à lire le code elles sont seulement intéressées par les résultats. Son amende pour employer les langues spécialisées pour spécialisé charge qui peuvent être facilement compilés dans le code de C++ mais ce qui est gagné en utilisant le pour le contenu final de visionnement ?

oui tout cela est vrai,

le vrml reste un langage abordable et gratuit.
et qui encore aujourd'hui n'a pas fini d'être intéressant.
qu'importe qu'il soit retraité oui oui.
Smile

4- Je suis intéressé de savoir si tu développe un logiciel
à usage commun ou si tu veux juste faire de la "peinture codifiée".

A bientôt, je pars demain matin...
voici le temps réel de l'endroit où je vais:
http://www.ordesa.com/webcam/webcam.html
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PostSubject: Re: Seamless   Thu 3 Aug - 13:24

Peut-être notre problème commun est que nous n'arrivons pas a partager nos connaissances avec le monde.
Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Seamless   Thu 3 Aug - 20:20

Bonne vacances
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thyme
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PostSubject: Re: Seamless   Thu 3 Aug - 21:28

Hi Jacinto
I still do not understand what you mean by you do not see the bones!!!!!!. They are visible in seamless3d in the form of a scene tree as well as the actual geometry.
When click on a vertex the node is selected in the scene tree and a visible pivot point in the 3d window for the selected node so it is all very graphical and high level.
If you mean something else please show a screen shot of "visible bones" from another program because I feel in the dark as to what you are continuing to say.

C++ is a much more open standard than VRML/X3D
C++ is NOT a trademark of any organisation where as VRML/X3D is a trademark of the web3d consortium
The fact that I was warned with a lawsuit by one of the designers of X3D brings this home as a reality.

Stroustrup does not own C++ though he designed it.
I want a Seamless viewer format to be as open as possible in this same spirit.
This does not mean the only way this can be done is trough a committee. Committees tend to create politics and compromised ugly designs no one is happy with.
There are much better ways to design things and keep it open.

Seamless3d is under the MIT licence which is one of the most open licences you can get.
People are welcome to do what they like with it, I have no reservations if someone wants to fork seamless. If someone can use seamless to come up with something better good luck to them. Let the best design be decided by the people, not some elite political organisation I say.

VRML has some good aspects to it which I will continue to utilise for seamless but I stopped seeing VRML through rose coloured glasses about 2 years ago.
I am simply working towards designing things how I feel they should have been done over 10 years ago.
There are to many aspects about VRML that turn programmers away. It is mostly people who have misconceptions about the language who most praise it I feel.
You have to pay a $100 to belong to the web3d consortium. There is nothing open about this. It suggests unless you are rich your opinion is of no value!!!!

When I was first presented with VRML back in 2000 I did wonder why there was not a C++ standard for the net.
I have already demonstrated that C++ can do just about anything JavaScript can do in a high level friendly way directly and can be more high level and friendly in a number of ways.

For example take VRML ROUTEs
why is:

Node.a TO Node.b

any more friendly or simple to get data from one node to another than the C++ equivalent:

Node.b = Node.a

?

Not that there is a big problem here but I feel the latter (C++) is more intuitive and keeps things more standard.


vecA = rotA * rotB * vecB + vecC;

reads nicer than the JavaScript equivalent

vecA = rotA.multiply( rotB).multVec(vecB).addVec(vecC);

I need to write a FAQ or something because when I talk about C++ being used for online scripts this always leads to assumptions as to what I am proposing that are typically far off track.

However a few months ago I did try to condense my reasons by writing this 17 rational reasons why I like the idea of C++ being used for 3d content:

1/ It offers high level GUI 3d editors freedom in what sort of content they can generate making it an ideal language for creative click artist who are not programmers.
2/ It offers the artist who has programming skills great creative freedom.
3/ It makes good use of operators making it a very human friendly language.
4/ Through custom built libraries C++ comes closest to satisfying everyone's needs.
5/ Because it is the most popular 3d format it has more support to draw from than other languages.
6/ It offers greater extensibility than one could ever hope for from more specialized high level languages.
7/ It is a true non proprietary language not being a trade mark of any company
8/ Through the use of container classes and smart pointers it allows for safe coding on the net and memory management hidden from the user.
9/ It's scripts offer operating system independence.
10/ It's scripts are fast which can be most important when simulating physics in real time animations.
11/ It's online scripts can be compiled for offline applications and or be verified by any standard C++ compiler.
12/ Because high level functionality in C++ is attained through libraries instead of relying heavily on "built in" functions, viewers of C++ content are not at the mercy of a few people dictating how high level functionality must conform.
13/ Viewers geared towards displaying C++ content can avoid the bloat that will inevitably arise in viewers of specialized languages that depend heavily on "built in" functions.
14/ Because C++ is a multi paradigm programming language it can adapt to different programming trends as they come into fashion.
15/ C++ saves the developer time in not having to deal more languages and compilers than need be used for different tasks.
16/ Because C++ is a strongly typed language it lets one dream and develop trivial scripts into complex sophisticated masterpieces.
17/ C++ continues to prove it self as a most flexible and practical language able to deal with unforseen realities where more specialized languages come undone.

enjoy your holiday

regards

thyme


Last edited by on Fri 4 Aug - 0:10; edited 4 times in total
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alain
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PostSubject: Re: Seamless   Thu 3 Aug - 21:51

hello Thyme , jacinto and all , I am in a cyber in Kiev , no time to read all and the keyboard is qrty !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Smile

_________________
http://mixed3d.net/
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thyme
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PostSubject: Re: Seamless   Thu 3 Aug - 21:59

Hi Alain Smile
Just as well perhaps heheh so that you don't get distracted from your holiday Smile
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mcfly
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PostSubject: Re: Seamless   Fri 4 Aug - 2:49

Okay, now I want to learn C++! You make it sound like its a very logical language, very intuitive, which I dont think is the case with javascript Rolling Eyes ....
The history you provide is also very interesting, I didn't know VRML was a trademark, unlike C++.... also that sucks that you got contacted by x3d people. I am no techie, but I was under the silly impression that x3d is open source, and I thought oopen source means anyone can freely manipulate it.
Bonjour,
Mcfly
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thyme
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PostSubject: Re: Seamless   Fri 4 Aug - 5:18

Hi Mcfly Smile
lol! did I say to much? Smile
But I can verify everything.
X3D is royalty free (meaning they can not charge you money to use it to my understanding) and there are X3D open source browsers and I must also point out it is a international standard too but it is true that VRML and X3D are trademarks of the web3d consortium.
http://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/development/_pages/page22Body.html
or google for the words trademark x3d

When I first read stroustrup say:

"I was careful not to patent or trademark anything to do with C++. That's one reason we write plain "C++" and not "C++(tm)". The C++ standard is unencumbered of patents - the committee carefully checked that also."


I much liked how this sounded Smile

The less dependent we are on something being owned by someone else the better off we all are.

The issue regarding where I was warned I could be facing a lawsuit resulted from a dispute with Justin Couch on the HAnim forum about how creaseAngle should be interpreted for HAnim. (the single skin mesh nodes for X3D)
Sadly the logs for all the old HAnim files were lost from their server Sad
But I have all the emails of this discussion un-edited that took place here:

http://www4.tpg.com.au/users/gilldawn/seamless3d/creaseAngleInterpretation.html


I feel the need to point out that I continue to support VRML/X3D and don't suggest vrmlers pack in VRML, I still use it. It is currently necessary (at least BXX VRML is where I am currently based).
Seamless C++ is still new and under development and so has not proved it self yet like C++ in general has. For a beginner to try seamless's built in C++ compiler at this stage would probably prove to be frustrating and I fear might permanently put them off ever trying again but please keep tuned, I am in the next few days going to work on making it very easy for anyone (no matter what programming experience they have had or not had) to be able to add simple C++ instructions for animation instead of using ROUTEs Smile This I think is a great way to get your foot in the door to something that has very few limits but at the same time if you don't want to peruse programming to more advanced levels, there is no penalty. (the best of both worlds)

The thing that I am doing that is not so commonly done is to put C++ out there on the Net and compiled on the fly in a way that people can feel reasonably secure that the script wont write to their hard disk drive same as any other internet scripting language. I don't see any issues here that would make C++ unsuitible. It can be prevented from doing malicious things the same as any other other scripting language can be.

Then again, what I am doing might not be so uncommon. I am far from being the only one moving in this direction.
Microsoft's CLI (related to dot NET) supports C++ which can do both OpenGL and DirectX but this is allso at a very early stage and is not as open as Seamless.
C++ for OpenGL is also supported for online scripts by softintegration but this uses an interpreter instead of a just in time (JIT) compiler like seamless and .net do.
The softintegration C++ interpter is not open source but the more who support C++ the more valubale C++ is for all who use it.

One of the reasons I think many feel reserved in using C++ for high level scripting, is because it is often reserved for doing the ugly tasks no other language is suitable for. However I have demonstrated by using libraries specifically developed for 3d scripting, it can be more well suited than JavaScript for simple pretty looking scripts.

http://www.seamless3d.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=18

In most cases C++ and JavaScript code are identical for scripting.
If there is any issue with C++ being more difficult, for example, perhaps writing your own classes (few do this in JavaScript for VRML) might be easier in JavaScript, I think it is wiser to overcome such problems using a GUI aid to create a user defined class as opposed to inventing a new incompatible language.

Bonjour
thyme
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fabricator
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PostSubject: Re: Seamless   Tue 8 Aug - 9:49

thyme wrote:


The issue regarding where I was warned I could be facing a lawsuit resulted from a dispute with Justin Couch on the HAnim forum about how creaseAngle should be interpreted for HAnim. (the single skin mesh nodes for X3D)
Sadly the logs for all the old HAnim files were lost from their server Sad
But I have all the emails of this discussion un-edited that took place here:

http://www4.tpg.com.au/users/gilldawn/seamless3d/creaseAngleInterpretation.html

Nice one Justin Sad

What was amusing is that most of these issues were the direct result of Justin's hardware based H-Anim system. It required one shader unit per Joint, which mean the top of the line Graphics card ran out of shaders about waist height Laughing

Its one thing to ignore parts of the spec, you just end up with a program which isn't complient in one small area. Its another matter altogether to demand changes to the spec to solve a particular hardware problem you are having.

Another point raised was, the ability to edit the mesh during the animation process, say to attach an object to the mesh or change the weighting. According to Justin this should be disallowed as it interfers with his shader hardware system.

Another thory problem was the ability to read the mesh in its currently animated state, this would mean that H-Anim models wouldn't have working collision, it would also break the new X3D Revision 1 http://www.web3d.org/news/releases/archives/2006/08/web3d_consortiu_3.php physics model and ray sensors.


I'd rather have thyme's so called non standard engine than say BS Contact which doesn't even support Displacers, or Xj3D which has lots of bugs with H-Anim content.

Maybe time to the web3d.org members to test some of these ideas with real code, rather than pure paper based standards.
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thyme
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PostSubject: Re: Seamless   Wed 9 Aug - 0:35

Thanks very much for your support fab! It means a lot, and thanks too mcfy. I am no superman lol but I feel very confident I am onto something Smile I make mistakes and have refined a lot over the years. Some features have been completely redesigned when proven to be unnecessarily ugly. All good practical designs that are not trivial have to go through such stages. My eyes have been opened to how little experimentation has ever been done towards making an open online 3d viewing standard compared to other standards. Good standards are something I respect and want to preserve but religiously supporting a poorly designed standard at an early stage, I can now see now what a negative impact this can have by holding back good design for all.


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Flav'
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PostSubject: Re: Seamless   Wed 9 Aug - 0:37

(Huhu vive les romans) *va mettre une eternité a comprendre* Sad
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thyme
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PostSubject: Re: Seamless   Wed 9 Aug - 0:51

Sorry for taking over this forum Flav' while Alain is away Smile
when Alain gets back he will sort us English speaking people out Wink

Babel:

Désolé pour assurer ce Flav' de forum tandis qu'alain est parti Smile
Quand Alain revient il nous assortira d'expression anglaise peuplent dehors Wink


Cours d'instruction sans couture français par Alain:

http://www.seamless3d.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=38

Amicalement
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isa
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PostSubject: Re: Seamless   Wed 16 Aug - 17:16

hello Thyme , Flav , Fabricator , Alain allway in holiday , i come back from holidays and i see very nice horses so i think to Bribri and Thyme

this is the FERIA in France , a big party in the city where you can see bullfights, horses, music and a lot of drink people sings and dances on the street during five following days






happy to see you again Smile on Louise


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