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alain
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PostSubject: Re: Seamless   Wed 12 Jul - 13:26

what are you doing with seamless , jacinto ??

I downloaded the latest version and it has less and less crahed .
May be because I cleaned my puter these last months , many times with avast , but sure because seamless is more and more strong ..





what is that , jacinto ?

http://eol.free.fr/images/nurbs.wrl

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jacinto
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PostSubject: Re: Seamless   Wed 12 Jul - 13:46

salut alain,
puisque je m interesse au tutoriaux,
http://schizzo.free.fr
j ai essayer de suivre le tutorial du logiciel de thymes, mais ttrs vite j en est conclu , qu il etait pas adapter.
car je n est jamais vu un systeme de construction visuel informatique qui commence par une hierarchie.
On commence par les detail ? ou par l ensemble?
Donc j'ai cesser de suivre le tutorial, et le probleme de sans couture ne se pose donc pas pour moi avec seamless, la solution toute relative des metaball ou meme des polygone bricoler, me parai plus intuitive et plus sensible pour la modelisation ou autre.

Quote :
il me semble qu'il n'est pas un bon chemin que de devoir vouloir avoir un filaire parfait, notament aux jointures et qu'il serait plus juste qu'un automatisme le fasse,
mais aujourd'hui "Blender" ne fait pas une fonction telle que "project curve on the surface" qui conbinée avec subdivise rendrait les jointures plus adaptables sans un travail administratif de petite main long et complexe et en decalage avec le pourquoi l'ordinateur a ete inventé.


Smile

quand au wrl
http://eol.free.fr/nurbs
c est juste un petit dessin de ma part
le grand livre, c est le livre qui explique tout :
la bible ou le coran...par exemple
le champignon c est l arme nucleaire.
nurbs c est le titre c est sans couture sans plie Smile
Mais on peu aussi y voir tout autre chose
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alain
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PostSubject: Re: Seamless   Thu 13 Jul - 12:34

I used the Back ground tutorial Smile



Laughing

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PostSubject: Re: Seamless   Thu 13 Jul - 12:54

it remembers me when I tried to use that sort in Spazz ,



and marco and his small prog to draw on images ( IFS facile )



http://louisedesavoie.forumactif.com/viewtopic.forum?t=529

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PostSubject: Re: Seamless   Thu 13 Jul - 14:48

coucou Smile suis la Smile

lol



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PostSubject: Re: Seamless   Thu 13 Jul - 20:12

En résumer :
http://eol.free.fr/nurbs
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PostSubject: Re: Seamless   Fri 14 Jul - 16:54

post scriptum


http://www.sharedutchdesign.nl/milan/2006/kabel.htm



http://www.toolsgalerie.com/

CHRIS KABEL

MESH CHAIR. 2006
édition ToolsGalerie
métal et peinture epoxy. Dimensions l/l/h 65/45/65 cm.
édition limitée, 20 couleurs RAL , 1 ex / couleur + 1 ea RAL 7045.

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PostSubject: Re: Seamless   Fri 14 Jul - 20:46

qu'est ce que vous avez donc avec les chaises ?
hahahaha


Voici la chaise du prochain tutorial de Anne sur Blender.
( Qui sera en page apres plus tard sur le site de schizzo )
Elle me dit que c est la seule chose a peu pres faisable sur blender en Nurbs !!
(on peu faire aussi la coque de bateau...guere plus)




http://schizzo.free.fr/tut3/chaise.wrl

on part on vous embete plus a moin que je trouve un point internet entre temps.
bises
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PostSubject: Re: Seamless   Fri 14 Jul - 21:00

bisous à toute la famille !!!

attention les coups de soleil
.....

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PostSubject: Re: Seamless   Sat 15 Jul - 2:09

Hi Jacinto, Alain, Isa, Realwtl and All Smile
Afraid I can't keep up with you two Jacinto and Alain lol
I am still working on a horsy, have not had a chance to begin on chairs yet!

Here is my horse I began yesterday:

http://www.seamless3d.com/av/horse.smls

It has evolved from the branchJoin demo shown in the seamless help menu.
I have a theory we in fact evolved from horses Wink

Ok it looks pretty much not like a horse so far. I guess I need to measure horse proportions lol

BTW Jacinto, Seamless3d supports at least 2 different techniques for creating models.
There is the immediate way (editing polygons in a direct way) as shown in the tutorials:

http://www.seamless3d.com/tut/immediate_av/index.html
http://www.seamless3d.com/tut/minimalist/index.html

And the more Seamless3d specific build node way shown in the tutorials:
http://www.seamless3d.com/tut/build_av/index.html
http://www.seamless3d.com/tut/worm_animation/index.html
and all of the robot demos so far from seamless's help menu use build nodes.

These two techniques can be mixed in seamless too, which I often do and I should mention there are many different way you can approach these two techniques.

Which tutorials did you follow? and where did you find it difficult to understand what to do?

I have looked at your interesting blender tutorials.
I would like to try following your tutorials on using metaballs when I can find the time.
I have only played a little with blender. I attempted to write a parallel tutorial of my tutorial "Making an Avatar from Immediate Spheres and Cylinders" for blender using immediate editing but I cant find how to do this with blender easily. Blender did not seem as easy from the start, just to set up a sphere or cylinder but perhaps this is only because I don't know how to use it or perhaps immediate editing of polygons is not blender's strong point.
Perhaps it would make more sense to compare a seamless specific method like the build node technique to NURBS, Metaballs and Subdivision by showing how to make the same avatar (or close to it) from beginning to end (including animation) using these different techniques.
I think it is hard to judge a technique to be better than another only because it is more intuitive to begin with.

Many techniques become second nature to an artist after sufficient time has been spent.
Also what begins as easy may prove to be more awkward than another technique that is not so easy to begin with.

Questions to ask:

How easy is the technique to begin with?
How easy is the technique for letting the artist create high quality content?
How easy is the technique to create smooth flowing seamless objects?
How much control does the technique give the artists over the structure of the polygons?
Does the technique let the user create models using triangles efficiently?
Does the technique let the user add greater density of vertices where they are needed for such things like animated joints?
How good is the technique at letting the artist go back to an earlier stage in the development of the model to make changes?
Does the technique support programmable variations?
Does the technique let the artist write mathematical equations?
How much control does the technique offer over texture mapping?
How small is does the file end up being for the model?
How practical is the technique in the long run?

I have addressed all these points in designing seamless Smile

That's interesting to see you have tried something simular using Spazz Alain but does Spazz let the model be put into wire-frame mode while the background is solid?
Nice image of a fairy Smile I can imagine it being relatively easy to create from polygons.
I find cartoon type models very interesting by how a few simple curves can capture the essence of the character. I admire how artists can do this and is something I would like to be able to do, build nodes should be able to take advantage of this nicly.


Last edited by on Sun 16 Jul - 22:09; edited 2 times in total
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peter le cochon
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PostSubject: Re: Seamless   Sun 16 Jul - 1:51

Hello People!

Glad to meet you all here, Thyme defending his corner, Alain trying to be a polite host, and jicer disagreeing with both ... lol ... the war of misunderstandings.

Alain: that forum is chaos .. lol, and I do love it that way. You know my opinion about Orsay (... a railway station should never end being an art museum... what a mess!!!!)... but your forum is top, even if it messes up almost every techie thread.

Jacinto : Jolies Vacances !!!! Salud y revolución !!!!

Thyme : I did read your Javascript -> Seamless C++ tutorial ... and I need more of it !!!! It's great Very Happy !!!!!

I am one of the silent and lazy Seamless watchers ... let's say, that I am afraid of spending too much time for learning how to use a new (well, at this point it's a classic in continous evolution) tool for 3D creation... but I am not a 3D creator at all.

By the way : I am proud of "knowing" the author of such a tool, as much as I would be proud of knowing a musician whilest listening at his work or as much as I am proud of "knowing" Alain and Jicer and Anne and their artwork (even if I am not very confident with art .... ;-)

Oki ... now, let's go Seamless (sorry if I should mess even more this thread!) :

The good part of Seamless, in my oppinion, is it's low weight and ease of installation, and the very best part, probably same for new and senior builders, might be the way it approaches wysiwyg edition with lower level 3D comprehension.

It also shows, that you are a talentend teacher, and everybody is "infected" by your faith in the power of lower level languages... your thaughts about your migration from C to C++ - I did read them somwhere - are comprehensive, even for an java_scripting pig

My question for you (ah ... may be that's why I did not post that at Seamless Forum) :

How if you did split Seamless 3D into an editor part and a viewer part ?

I mean ... I have hardly understood about the C++ compiler and the smls viewer, but it would be great, if someone like you would come up with such a deal : get rid of "never to be rescpected" and sold specifications, and offer an open "xtandard" viewer, with high performance scripting, bitcode output, and all that sort of stuff we are hoping for (not hopping ;-) since decades...

If there should be ever a wishlist for that :

Let us embed Seamless-Viewer into M$-Explorer (Crazy ... etc...) and have an interface to it, like "document.seamlessviewer.setEvent("hoppies", "gimme_some_peace", "right now")... or similar activeX capability.

We salute you !

Huggs

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PostSubject: Re: Seamless   Sun 16 Jul - 21:58

Hi Peter Smile heheh I enjoyed reading your post and I am a great fan of your light house world as you already know Smile
Thanks for your confidence in seamless and your good summery of where Seamless is heading Smile

I agree, I think a standard should evolve over time by those who use them and be supported on the merit of how good it is, not because it has been approved by some organisation that tries to stamp out creativity in order to maintain it's dominance.
I say be weary of those who have a conflict of interest when they preach how bad it is to reinvent the wheel and who do not even use the standard much themselves.

However I must point out, Seamless does not output any "bitcode" if you mean a binary like an exe. It is possible to use a standard compiler to create an exe with compiled in content using the seamless source files but the content that seamless outputs for online content is all in the form of a text file. The output C++ is text same as JavaScript but is compiled to native machine code on the fly by the seamless built in compiler before it is run instead of being compiled on the fly into interpreter code like JavaScript is. In the future I think the viewer content should be different to the seamless editor files. Lower level viewing content should offer greater versatility for other types of editors too. This is because it is easier to convert a range of high level formats to one common low level format than it is to yet another high level format. The viewer files will be 100% C++ source code in the form of text files but can be gzipped. Creating a binary form of a text file could be done too but I am not sure how important this would be to do. This could reduce the file size but is more often done to prevent piracy. One concern I have is it may also benefit people who want to hide malicious code so it might be wise to leave the C++ in the form of text unless the binary form is as easy to convert back to text as it would be to unzip a wrl.

I plan to have a dedicated seamless viewer in the future but because it is good to have the editor contain all or most of the features of the viewer it saves time for the time being to just have one exe to upload.

Yes it would be good to have seamless have an activeX caperbility. Hope this can be done using no more than the free VC8++ express compiler Rolling Eyes


MDR Alain Smile I am flattered by the logo you are currently useing Smile

Louise forum logo for the 17th of July 2006:



Here is what i did yesterday.
First I took a photo of one of the old ponys that lives on our farm for a background guide to judge proportions.
I scaled the background photo till it looked proportional to Lilly Sophie before I started getting the geometry to fit the outline of the photo.







If I could draw perhaps I would have drawn the horse instead of taking a photo to get the outline wanted.

The torso has more triangles than it will need when it is finished but It is helpful to work with dense polygons because they give better feedback for the curves while creating them. Later the triangles can be re-structured at the flat stage (before they are curved by any Lathe node) for optimisation.

The ponies don't look so picturesque in the wintertime sporting their winter coats but here is a photo taken of the same horse last year in better times.



Last edited by on Mon 17 Jul - 8:27; edited 1 time in total
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jacinto
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PostSubject: Re: Seamless   Sun 16 Jul - 23:20


c'est animal es réussi
avec son regard vert et rouge.
Wink

Je suis en départ.
C'est très bien Thyme , je reviendrai pour te donner la réplique...
En attendant, demande a Alain de te donner quelques cours de dessins.
lol..mdr
Very Happy
A septembre mes chers amis
jacinto

ps:
voici une base



et la même image moins réduite :
http://eol.free.fr/images/cheval.jpg


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peter le cochon
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PostSubject: Re: Seamless   Mon 17 Jul - 0:05

Thank's for the reply, Thyme !

May be I should try to change my (crashy) runtime generated waves and tower to Seamless C++... would it work?

I will try.

Seamless viewer as an activeX control is on the roadmap now? bounce


Sad A Septembre, Jacinto & family ! Jolies vacances ! Enjoy and fill up energy !!!!


Peter pig
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PostSubject: Re: Seamless   Mon 17 Jul - 9:07

Thanks much Jacinto for sharing the model your worked from, its a very good model for showing the essential curves of a horse
Hope you have a nice holiday Smile

Peter wrote:

Quote :
May be I should try to change my (crashy) runtime generated waves and tower to Seamless C++... would it work?

I will try.


Peter, It could be frustrating to do some things with the built in C++ compiler at this stage depending on what sort of code you plan to write. For writing non trivial scripts it is pretty much essential I think to first get the script to work using a standard C++ compiler and then after getting the built in C++ compiler to work which will likly involve me adding a few more C++ instructions to the built in compiler's vocabulary. I be more than happy to take a look at your JavaScript and see how easy it is to convert it to C++. I hope though its not complex or relies on a bug to work lol which is not a rare thing to find from people who dabble in writing scripts.
What ever the case I be happy to help where I can.

Quote :
Seamless viewer as an ActiveX control is on the roadmap now?


This might depend on if its possible to get an ActiveX caperbility to work using the free compiler. The free MS compiler does not have an option sadly for beginning an ActiveX project. I know little about ActiveX stuff my self but still hoping there is a way to do this using the free MS compiler. Bumpy suggested I should write an ActiveX caperbility for seamless some time ago so there is some morale support for this. I would like to do this and would do it right away if only I knew how lol. Perhaps .NET offers an alternative to ActiveX now Confused . Most things take a little time to investigate how its done and there are other goals too like writting an OpenGL version so that Seamless can run on Linux.
Anyone is welcome to use the seamless source files for any project (such as writting an ActiveX caperbility for seamless) now seamless is open source Smile
As an alternative, I wonder is it still feasible to be able to click on a link in IE and it open the URL in some other stand alone player/browser such as seamless? I know its easy the other way arround (click on an active object in seamless and a html page open in IE)
I remember not so many years ago a MIDI player opening automatically when I clicked on a MIDI link and doesn't media player have this capability too? or is this different and generally not an option any more due to security issues? I don't know does anyone else know?

kind regards
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PostSubject: Re: Seamless   Fri 21 Jul - 0:11

Ok the last few days I have focused on the horse and feel at last it looks like a horse Smile but still plenty much can be improved. Remember it took like a year before I came up with a nice face for Sophie's body. And this would have been a result of work I had done on my Petra av before and before this my first generation of seamless avs back in 2001-2002. I have spent only a fraction of my time on art compared to programming since 2000. I am afraid when I spend just the day on art I often procrastinate a lot because unlike when you program, the outcome is much more unknown. This leads to fear and often all you want to do is curl up and sleep and hope all the problems will go away. This I feel is why artists are often referred to as Lazy but I have great sympathy for them Smile

Yesterday was a productive day of art for me though Smile I started with a fresh mind free from any distractions from the net Wink

Early in the day I shaped the legs. I much like the legs especially the feet Smile (even if they are not that realistic looking). Note that the legs should look more horse like when the limbs are bent from animation.

Here are my ears I made later in the day. They look more like they belong on an alien but are better than nothing Smile



I spent the last part of the day making horse tails.

First I tried thin paper strips of triangles.



then I tried tubes much like Lilly-Sophie's hair:



then I tried thinner tubes.



each has it's advantages but none really satisfy me Sad

hair is my stumbling block for both women and now horses! lol
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PostSubject: Re: Seamless   Fri 21 Jul - 16:48

I made a better tail today that flows more like hair Smile




I think my previous attempts were too chaotic, lacking some kind of mathematical order, which seems to play quite a big role in what makes something look appealing thumleft
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alain
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PostSubject: Re: Seamless   Fri 21 Jul - 17:36

Dera Thyme ,
all that is wonderful ,
seing the artist working .....and the results ...
Thanx you very much to take time to show all that ..

I will write ....

For the moment :

do you remember that ?

http://perso.orange.fr/alaindumenieu/vrml/louiseforum/thymelara.html


Smile
be well , work well Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Seamless   Sun 23 Jul - 1:49

Dear Alain Smile

Yes I remember the plated hair I made last year. Glad you posted it to your forum, I never posted it to my forum because of a lack of web space probably so just sent out emails.
It's good to hear you think its good to see work as it progresses because a lot of it is unknown how its going to turn out. its a little scary like this but others get to see I am in fact just human (not a god lol)

I have met many people in blaxxun who can draw a lot better than me but they never attempt to try sculpting triangles thinking it is to hard for them sadly, where as I have very poor drawing skills (I have never spent much time drawing since I was 15) and am making 3d models far better looking than anything I have drawn or painted Smile The great thing about making 3d models is once its made its a lot less work to make an image from it at any angle or even pose or in a wide range of different scenes. Also once you have made a horse you can continue to fine tune it without needing to start from scratch each time. So when I hear people say the reason 3d has not caught on the net like 2d has, is because 3d is more work than 2d, I very much question this. I think it has more to do with people feel more confident creating 2d art because most of us were introduced to 2d art as children. Just think how different things might have been had seamless been side by side the crayons and paint brushes Smile

Here is the work I did yesterday on the mane



Though the mane reminds me of plasticine I am happy with it Smile and can see other possibilities of how I could have gone with it. Because I see horses have a wide range of hairstyles like women, it will be good to in the future try a few different styles out.


Today I am going to try adding the eyes (which I imagine to be easy) and 2 big nostrils which should be fun I hope Smile

Nice logo Alain Smile



Did your wife grow them?
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PostSubject: Re: Seamless   Sun 23 Jul - 17:23

hi guys, ca va.
thats a funny thought, thyme, about the lazy artist...heheheheheheh
i guess i fall into the artist category (since i can't program , heheheheh)
.
I think that the 3d medium is very difficult to work with for a meat artist because meat art has to do with physical strokes. the problem with 3d
is that the flow of physically created art is impeded. what we get is purely
a result of mental efforts.
once we can get both our hands in t he program, and then theres no telling where 3d can go!
nice horse. tongue
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PostSubject: Re: Seamless   Tue 25 Jul - 0:53

hi mcfly, thanks Smile
I have thought myself (especially in the early days) how nice it would be to have a more intuitive interface, where you can virtually put your hands inside the screen and mould the vertices directly. I saw a TV documentary, not so long ago, where many of the parts of a motor bike were styled by human hands using clay. Because a real physical shape can be converted to a virtual 3d surface (such as vertices), this must already be a feasible way of creating 3d shapes for computers but I don't know how expensive or easy this is to do currently.
However, even if it is relatively cheap and easy to do, I am not sure making shapes this way is going to be easier than creating shapes using a mouse and keyboard. A painter and I imagine most sculptors (especially sculptors who work with stone) still have to look at the model and mentally assess where a curve needs to go more in or out. Seamless takes advantage of computers by the fact that it can assist the modeller to create perfect curves in 3 dimensions, effortlessly. Unless you have had many years behind you in developing clay moulding skills, It would be very hard to create the sorts of curves you see in my horse from the very first stages to the end.
Also Seamless lets us continuously fine tune the model's shape after it is ready for animation, without it being a problem in anyway.
My favourite 3d animated art is probably the clay animations of Nick Park (creator of Wallace and Grommet) but when I think about all the overhead required to make clay models and taking into account each frame has to be done by hand and, that ray-tracing to me feels it is on par (quality wise) with real light to create images, I feel confident I am backing the right horse, using a more computer oriented way.
I think most problems seen with computers in creating 3d art has more to do with them not being used much. The more we use something the more we adapt to it, developing different techniques and building our confidence at the same time.
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PostSubject: Re: Seamless   Tue 25 Jul - 22:02

hello Thyme Smile

your favourite 3D Smile funny i don't know that Smile


http://www.mmplatform.com/samples/poly/original/22126.mp3

my son said , gromit i know mummy !!!!! so i go to see a video for me Mr.Red lol Smile !!!


flower isa
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PostSubject: Re: Seamless   Wed 26 Jul - 1:18

Heheh Isa Smile thanks for the Wallace and Gromet tune Smile
Good to hear your son knows them Smile
I asked Lilly if she heard of Wallace and Grommet in France just recently and she did not know of them. I sent her some links for some of the free trailers for the movies. It is very english but should be universally cute I can only imagine Smile


I have updated my horse online:

http://www.seamless3d.com/av/horse.smls

I have changed a few things and added a few more features including nostrils and eyes but it's at a stage where the triangles are wanting to be trimmed. Before I do this though I want to add a mouth and make better ears.

Yesterday I became unsure for how to add a mouth because of the shape of the horse's head and because I wanted to project onto the head the lips the same way I made Sophie and my own Avatar. For a horse this is not so simple to project on a mouth like it is to a human's head because a horse's mouth changes angle to about 90 degrees from the front of the mouth to the sides.
I spent a lot of time yesterday wondering just how to do this but late in the day I had an idea where I project the mouth onto the head using 7 or more BranchJoin nodes, each one projecting at a slightly different angle to the previous. Each BranchJoin node will only project a single row of vertices (and we only need to project half of the mouth, the other half can be duplicated in mirror form). This should achieve a smooth continuous seamless join for the lips. I am very excited about this idea because I now realise seamless can project details onto just about any kind of surface no matter how much the angle changes. What's more, I don't have to add a new node type so I am having a long holiday from programming lol but I am starting to miss it Smile
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alain
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Number of posts : 22810
Localisation : Dompierre sur Veyle ,France
Registration date : 2005-04-19

PostSubject: Re: Seamless   Wed 26 Jul - 11:26

I have to write that text with images ,you know , each thursday , and it is not easy to find an idea each week , or to have motivation to do something ......
Last week mcfly gave me a great one when I found by chance a book about car-planes ........
and your horse gave me one great too , Thyme , and I wanted to write about sketches and artist working and work in progress etc etc ...but I don't know why I was not good to finish that ....

I had it since days , but I felt it was not well done ....
Np , it is not very important ...but when I was searching and idea about horses , I thought about Muybridge and your next step , Thyme , animation .......

So I can do that :

270706 :
http://perso.orange.fr/alaindumenieu/artvrml/270706.htm
and
030806 :
http://perso.orange.fr/alaindumenieu/artvrml/030806.htm

Tell me if you agree about the links , Thyme , or I can change ...

Don't know what I will do for august 10 and august 17 , I am on holidays between 1 and 16 ,
must write these 2 pages before , I never missed one thursday since 2004 ! it is my stupid challenge LOL

Bravo for the horse , Thyme he is very nice , very nice , what is his name ??

We have a pupil here , bricette , crazy with horses , her best one is named "kangourou" Smile

http://louisedesavoie.forumactif.com/viewforum.forum?f=49

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Registration date : 2006-02-27

PostSubject: Re: Seamless   Wed 26 Jul - 19:57

it looks like muybridge won the bet Cool
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